 |
|
|
A Christlike guide to forgiveness
|
| Live audio chat with Bea Roegge, C.S.B. |
| December 11, 2007 |
Listen to the chat: Real
Audio | Windows
Media | QuickTime
The edited text has been transcribed for clarity.
How can we forgive others? Is it possible to move beyond cruelty, violence,
or abuse—toward healing?
In this thoughtful chat, Bea Roegge, a practitioner and teacher of Christian
Science in the Chicago area, addresses questions about acts of violence, like
the recent shooting at an Omaha, Nebraska mall, remorse over past relationships,
family conflict, and physical and mental abuse.
Bea emphasizes how true forgiveness wipes out whatever the offense may
be and leads to peace and progress. Central to her discussion is the spiritual
nature of each individual as the son or daughter of God and the unreality
of evil. Bea develops and deepens her explanation of these theological points—which
are essential to Christian Science—as she helps listeners understand the deeply
spiritual, rather than intellectual, meaning of forgiveness.
spirituality.com host: Welcome to another spirituality.com
live question and answer audio event. Today’s subject is “A Christlike guide
to forgiveness” and our guest is Bea Roegge, a longtime teacher and practitioner
of Christian Science in Chicago, Illinois. Bea has been an associate editor
for the religious magazines published by The Christian Science Publishing
Society and is a contributing editor to the website, the magazines, and to Sentinel Radio.
We’re so glad she could join us today. Bea, do you have some thoughts to get
us started?
Bea: Oh, I do, and you may just have to stop me because
I could talk on forever! It’s such a wonderful subject. It has so much to
do with divine Love in our lives, living Love. You mentioned the Christlike
understanding. Of course, Jesus demonstrated Christ, illustrated Christ, Truth,
more than anyone else. And one of his healings says to me a lot about forgiveness
and our role in forgiveness. It’s included in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I may
take something from each one of those and add to my story of it. But the story
begins with Jesus talking to a great multitude of people. Then, there were
a few people who were carrying a man on a couch of some kind, a totally paralyzed
man. But they couldn’t get through the crowd to Jesus, so they went up on
the roof, and let him down through the tiles of the roof. And there he was,
right in front of Jesus. And everyone listened to what the Master would say.
And he said simply, “Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.” That
was really a radical statement at that point, because the general conclusion
had been that only God could forgive sins. Then Jesus went on to say, knowing
the thoughts, of course, that were surrounding him and his statement, ”For
whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and
walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive
sins.” Then of course he said, to the sick of the palsy, “Arise, take up thy
bed, and go unto thine house.” Then it concludes with this, “when the multitudes
saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto
men.”
I think of power—I’ve always thought the healing was so wonderful, and
of course, it was wonderful. But the power which Jesus talked about was the
power on earth to forgive sins. I do feel we have that God-given power to
forgive sins, and whether we’re forgiving an offense, a personal offense made
by somebody to us, or whether we’re seeing sins of the world, we do have the
power to forgive sins and we do need to exercise it. Because when sin is forgiven
it is no longer a given. It is no longer a fact. Our great work in forgiving
the sins of the world is almost essential if we are going to have peace in
the world and survive. Well, as you can see, I can go on forever. So maybe
we should get into questions?
spirituality.com host: Yes, I just wanted to ask one little
question to that: How would you forgive a sin in the world, like a cruelty
or something that’s done in war, for example?
Bea: Well, I think more than anything else it is recognizing
that evil is not real, and that’s a big subject in itself. But that is the
standpoint that Christian Science takes. One of the tenets of this Church
(and there are just six of them), says “We acknowledge God’s forgiveness of
sin in the destruction of sin and the spiritual understanding that casts out
evil as unreal.” It’s the way we forgive the sins of the world. You know,
I don’t really answer questions. I think I address them. I do trust Christ
to answer the questions for each of us.
spirituality.com host: Well, I think that’s true, and I
think as we go along we’ll have an opportunity to explore that particular
topic a little bit more because we do have a lot of questions, as you said.
This is from Carol in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, and she says: “Are things we need
forgiveness for automatically forgiven when we forgive others? For example,
‘Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors,’ from the Lord’s Prayer?”
Bea: I don’t think there’s really anything automatic. It
seems to me that everything is a reasoning through or an unfoldment of Truth
or a right answer to something. I think it’s obviously essential that we forgive
others in order to be forgiven. But I think it’s a different question of forgiving
others and seeing that we are forgiven. And we need to see God’s role in both
of those. God gives us the patience and the love to forgive others and we
have that same patience and love to forgive ourselves, but we need to apply
it. We need to specifically look at something and say, Yes, I need forgiveness
for this and then find that forgiveness. Again, I don’t think anything is
just automatic.
spirituality.com host: I think one other thing in obtaining
forgiveness is the humility to accept forgiveness, too.
Bea: Oh, yes, oh yes.
spirituality.com host: I think humility can be very important.
Bea: Oh, yes. And the humility to ask for forgiveness.
In fact, humility is needed all the way along.
spirituality.com host: Now this is from Diane in Omaha,
Nebraska, and she says: “The Sunday before the shooting (at the Westroads
Mall in Omaha, Nebraska, on December 5, 2007), many churches in the area participated
in a prayer vigil because of rising violence in the Omaha metro area. How
can we feel that our prayers are effective when three days later this tragedy
happens?
Bea: I think we always get the question, Are our
prayers effective? And I can answer unequivocally, Yes, they
are effective. And I don’t want to speculate, but things could have
been a lot worse had people not been engaged in prayers. There were beautiful
examples of people finding their way to hide in closets, and so forth, and
being protected. Actually, there were few there who were casualties. Those
few we regret with all our hearts. But I think we have to look at how things
could have been a lot worse. I know prayer is answered, and I think each of
us know it in our own hearts, as it makes us love more, feel more confident
in God’s love for His creation.
spirituality.com host: I think we should never give up
on prayers and feel that that situation would mean that prayer was meaningless.
Bea: Yeah, and the question often comes, Why pray about
this if it’s not effective? And that’s just an argument that would keep us
from praying, and praying effective prayers.
spirituality.com host: Also, we don’t know the end from
the beginning. Those prayers could have repercussions that bless the city
in different ways.
Bea: Oh, there’s no doubt about that, and will go on blessing.
spirituality.com host: Right. Bobby in Indiana says, “There
must be something exactly right in the Amish religion that enabled them as
a whole community to not only forgive the schoolhouse killer in Pennsylvania
(October 2, 2006, at the West Nickel Mines School), but to give aid and assistance
to the family of the killer. Does that exact same aspect of religion exist
in the Christian Science religion, and if it does, what is it?”
Bea: Oh, of course it does. It exists in all religions,
this sense of forgiveness. I think in the Christian Science religion one of
the things that stands out to me that has meant an awful lot to me since beginning
the study of Christian Science, is that God’s forgiveness of sin is seeing
that evil is unreal. And that sometimes takes some doing and is not just putting
our head in the sand. But in Christian Science, evil is considered unreal.
“We acknowledge [as I mentioned earlier] God’s forgiveness of sin in the destruction
of sin and the spiritual understanding that casts out evil as unreal.” And
as we understand that God is All, God’s the only Creator, the only power in
this world, we can’t have another power called evil. That’s a deep subject
and it’s one really that one confronts in some way every day—that there is
an argument that evil is real and we have to do something about it. And also,
then, the argument, Well, if we say it’s unreal and don’t do anything
about it, it’ll multiply. We have to be absolutely convinced that
it’s unreal, and carry it through into every aspect of our thinking and not
just that this one particular evil is unreal.
spirituality.com host: Right. One of the things that occurred
to me about the Amish situation was, too, that the family of the man was so
obviously dismayed and distraught at what had been done, that it just elicited
a lot of compassion all the way around. And of course, the Amish people are
very special that way, too, but there was a lot of genuine compassion on all
levels during that time.
Bea: Yes, and great receptivity to forgiveness.
spirituality.com host: Yes. Pearl in Oregon is asking a
question about a family situation. She says, “I have had a longstanding rift
with my dear sister over misunderstandings relating to my mother’s passing.
I’m accused of doing something I did not do and there seems to be no way to
convince her that I had no knowledge of the deed. How do I reconcile this
when it seems my only option is to confess to something I never did?”
Bea: Well, of course, you’re not going to do that. We don’t
make peace by giving in or supporting a lie. People think if they do that
then they are forgiving, but that is not true, that’s not what’s happening.
Stand for the truth, and really pray to see your sister, that she knows the
truth. We don’t have our own truth and then somebody else has their truth.
Truth is true and it’s spiritual and includes everyone. I think you can go
to your sister if it’s still open for you to do that, and tell her exactly
what happened, don’t be afraid of telling the truth. I think sometimes we’re
afraid of one another and that makes us kind of contribute to a lie. But the
more we recognize that Truth itself is God, and that this applies to the human
scene, then the truth of the situation is known. There’s an old saying that
I’ve always loved, that “truth will out.” I’m convinced of that–that the truth
in any situation will “out.“ We’ll all see it as the truth that it is. But,
oh, the more you can love your sister and see that she includes every right
idea and—she must be suffering, so she must be feeling that something went
wrong with her mother. Compassion will often enable us to say something that
will reveal the truth. There is an answer to that, and you can rest assured
that the error of disbelief will not forever win, because Truth is the reality.
And the truth on the human scene will out.
spirituality.com host: One thing that I’ve found helpful
in dealing with a situation myself that was based on a misunderstanding that
seemed impossible to resolve, was to pray for opportunity—I genuinely wanted
there to be peace. I just prayed for an opportunity for reconciliation to
occur. What happened was, in a way that I could not have engineered, I mean
it just happened totally, spontaneously. An opportunity came where I could
speak to this individual, just the two of us, and say, “I feel that there’s
something not right here, and what is it?” And we could get it cleared up
and also address some questions the person had that they didn’t mention, but
that I intuitively felt needed to be answered. But I needed that opportunity,
and when God supplies—Mrs. Eddy talks about God supplying the occasion for
a victory over evil or error, God does supply those occasions, and it’s right
to pray for the right occasion where it can be as natural and as peaceful
an experience as possible.
Bea: Yes, and to pray to be alert to those occasions, and
to not let hurt feelings and that kind of thing interfere with hearing those
occasions, finding those occasions.
spirituality.com host: Right. It’s natural, as the Bible
talks about, to be “The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to
dwell in,” and it’s natural to have these breaches, whatever they are, eliminated
so that we are at one. Because we are at one with God, and the natural state
of things is to be at one with God and with each other. So the whole tendency
of the universe is moving in that direction and we have that to support our
efforts toward peace with each other and in the larger issues.
Bea: Oh, I love that. I love that sense of the oneness
of being. In today’s issue of The Christian Science Monitor (December
11, 2007), there’s an article from the Johns Hopkins Civility Project that
they have. And I love seeing that they have this project of helping us to
be kinder to each other, more civil with each other, so that there is not
even the occasion for forgiveness. I like to think it is a pre-forgiveness
state of thought, that we’re just all at one together. We need to act that
out. We need to know how to be civil with one another. I think they mention
in that story that it begins with peace with each one and then peace with
the nations, that this question of being civil. Mrs. Eddy speaks of forgiving
wrongs and forestalling them (Miscellaneous Writings, p.
107). And I think we can just really watch our daily thought and conversation
and see that we are forestalling wrongs, not just forgiving, not just keeping
the door open for offenses that need forgiveness. I’m sure most of us listening
know who Mary Baker Eddy is, the Founder of Christian Science and the author
of the textbook of Christian Science, Science and Health with Key
to the Scriptures, and other writings. And in one of her other writings
she says, “I can say it with joy,— no person can commit an offense against
me that I cannot forgive” (Message to The Mother Church, 1902,
p. 19). Going forward in that state of forgiving thought, of a gentle thought,
is to me almost as important as forgiving when offenses come.
spirituality.com host: Yes. Randy in Maryland says, “How
do I forgive a friend who said cruel and thoughtless things and then justified
them by saying they were only pointing out the truth?”
Bea: That brings up a subject that I feel is very important:
self-justification. I think that’s the lowest level of thought, and I feel
that self-justification is the great enemy of forgiveness. We don’t ask for
forgiveness when there’s self-justification of thought. Now, that’s a little
different from what she’s saying—she’s saying the other person is justifying
their position. Really, what somebody else does isn’t important to you, it’s
what you do. And somebody can go on self-justifying, but you can forgive,
for this is the power God gives us—that divine Love gives us. It’s important
that we continue to forgive, that’s part of expressing love in our daily lives.
And Mrs. Eddy says it’s so important. The most important thing is to express
love, a love that’s concentric, that’s forgetting self, forgiving wrongs and
forestalling them. That’s the position, the area, the way of thought that
one needs to think of, even if the other person hasn’t yet learned. But you
can trust, you can leave that up to God. Your friend will learn that saying
those things wasn’t totally being helpful to you, if that’s the case. Sometimes
I think it’s very hard to accept criticism of some kind, especially if somebody
is kind of annoyed with us in giving the criticism. Gosh, I think I’ve been
in that circumstance, criticizing somebody because it was bothering me and
then thinking I was doing it for their own good. That’s a lie that will be
cleared up because the Truth has the final answer.
spirituality.com host: I think one of the things we might
want to mention here in terms of forgiveness is that it recognizes the individual
we are forgiving is God’s idea and is complete and perfect. That eliminates
the evil, because seeing them as spiritual and perfect eliminates the possibility
of them having committed anything wrong. And it’s the same for forgiving ourselves,
seeing ourselves as God’s children or God’s ideas, or God’s creation. And
that puts everything on a different footing where it’s not just like the human
being saying, “Well, even though you made me so angry I wanted to strangle
you, I’m going to forgive you.” It really puts the whole forgiveness process
on a higher, spiritual basis because you’re stepping away from the evil that
seems to have been done, to see that higher, spiritual law in creation that
really is what governs.
Bea: I think that’s the only real way that we can forgive.
We can say we forgive somebody, but unless we see them as absolutely separate
from evil, and evil as not real, there isn’t genuine forgiveness, especially
the kind of forgiveness that forgets.
spirituality.com host: Yes. Carol in Wisconsin is sending
a slightly different type of question. She says: “If a loved one asks for
prayerful, Christian Science help, and there seems to be no healing result,
how do I forgive myself for what feels like an inability to be effective with
my prayers?”
Bea: Of course I think that’s the big question—forgiving
ourselves. We really need to have a basis for forgiving ourselves for anything.
And of course, if we’re taking personal responsibility for healing somebody,
we need to turn from that and see that it’s God that heals. Our job in doing
the healing work is to bear witness to God’s presence and power and to bear
witness to the perfection of God’s creation. We don’t personally heal, therefore
we’re not personally responsible and guilty when the healing has not taken
place. Now I think we need to be very careful with that kind of reasoning
that we’re just not having a proper sense of responsibility. I’ve always kind
of loved one play on words—I usually don’t like plays on words—but this one,
that “our responsibility is our response to God’s ability.” And I think that’s
what we need there. If you are responding to God’s ability—genuinely responding
that God is in control and governing—then there is no room for the argument
that you have failed in your prayers.
spirituality.com host: Thank you. Gail in New England writes:
“My divorce took place ten years ago and I pretty much raised the children
on my own and there has been a lot of progress with forgiveness and healing.
My former husband relocated a few years ago about 3,000 miles away, but he
comes back at Christmas to stay at a motel and seems to bring discord with
him, already making divisive plans, upsetting the kids, who are now grown.
I feel like I’ve forgiven seventy times seven already. How do I think about
this, facing the holidays?
Bea: Well, seventy times seven means to me that you forgive
forever. We’re not expecting problems, but really seeing that evil is unreal,
that the trouble he’s made before is not true. Truly to forgive and separate
the error from him is the best mental attitude to have toward the coming holidays.
I think we always get arguments about the holidays. It may come in that form
to you, in another form to someone else. But the more we can concentrate on
the fact that God is good and good is All, and that there never has been anything
to forgive—and of course, that then brings up the whole question of forgiving
and forgetting. There’s an old adage that I have loved that “Forgiving heals
wounds, and forgetting erases scars.” So we need both to forgive and forget.
There can’t be repetition if it’s forgotten. I think more than anything else,
[we need] to realize the true spirit of the holidays, and that spirit is really
loving our enemies. The message of the cross is loving our enemies. When you
think really, what Christmas is about, the birth of Jesus and his life, and
his healings and example, and his loving his enemies even while he was on
the cross, imbibing that spirit of the holidays, I know will see you past
all that.
It will see you through the holidays. And it will help to see all of
us through the holidays. The holidays do challenge us, but it’s a wonderful
challenge because they challenge us to really see God’s goodness and to understand
what Jesus’ life was about and what our own lives can be about, foreseeing
and forestalling error. That’s essentially what your question asks, How can
I forestall error? The best way to forestall it, is to see that it never happened.
There never has been inharmony in true being. And the Christmas season stands
for that true being, man born of God.
spirituality.com host: I think, too, that it’s very important
to recognize that the Christ can truly end the pattern. In Science
and Health Mrs. Eddy says: “Jesus beheld in Science the perfect man,
who appeared to him where sinning mortal man appears to mortals.” That sentence
is used a lot by Christian Scientists, partly I hope, because it is so useful.
However your husband may have been in all the previous times, that was the
sort of sinning mortal man appearing to mortals—but that isn’t the reality.
And to whatever degree you can uplift your thought to the Christlike view
of him as God’s idea—complete, perfect, satisfied, unifying, not destructive
and so forth—and lift those ideas up in your thought, you really can change
the situation. It’s the thought you bring to it that will really have an effect,
and it will be powerful and very surprising, sometimes.
Bea: And that can come naturally to you because it came
naturally to Jesus. Where sinning mortal man appears to mortals, the true
man appeared to Jesus. I’ve thought of that quotation, and as you mentioned,
it’s often used. I remember when I was Associate Editor we weren’t allowed
to use it for a while because it was too often used. But I’m not sure it can
be too often used. The sinning mortal man appears to mortals, but see yourself
as not a mortal, as this perfect man of God’s creation. The Christ vision
that you can entertain of yourself will help.
spirituality.com host: And also your children--everyone
is the Christlike man, the spiritual idea of God.
Bea: And that’s the only man that can appear, because it’s
the only reality. I think the next sentence says: “Thus, Jesus taught that
the kingdom of God is intact, universal, and that man is pure and holy.” And
that’s the truth about you, your children, and your former husband.
spirituality.com host: Chris in Medina, Ohio, says: “I’m
finding it very difficult to forgive someone who committed a terrible wrong
against myself and my family. This person took the lives of my dear pets and
then pretended to be neighborly toward us, even going so far as to offer to
help search for them. We all have the ability to choose our behaviors and
this person willfully decided to hurt us.” That is a tough question.
Bea: Yes. And, of course, Love has the power to forgive.
Again, I think the most important thing to see is that evil in any form is
not real. My question is, Have you confronted them, by saying that you know
that they killed them, and to just really talk it through? I know that’s not
always the easiest or even the wisest thing to do, but it’s better than holding
it in thought. Mrs. Eddy, again, said that nobody could commit an offense
against her that she could not forgive. I think we need to think about this.
The offense that has been committed, or that you feel sure has been committed,
did not come from God, therefore it is not real, it cannot stand. And somehow,
amends will be made because we live as brothers. We’re not just neighbors,
we’re brothers, we’re children of one Father. I don’t know if you pray the
Lord’s Prayer or not but when you say, “Our Father” you’re really praying
for that neighbor. Keep in mind that there’s one Father-Mother God and that
we are brethren in reality, in our being. And I think that will help you forgive.
And they certainly need help if they’ve done that. They need to be forgiven.
They need to learn that that is not the way and that hypocrisy is no part
of their being. One of my favorite Bible verses says, “The wisdom that is
from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated,
full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.”
Pray for that wisdom that will break through the hypocrisy that they seem
to be hiding behind. They really need more help, perhaps, than you do, darling.
spirituality.com host: This is from Mike in Ohio—and I
think this is a very good question for what you were just talking about—he
says: “Can you please define forgiveness?”
Bea: Oh, I think that is a very good question. I do like
saying something forgiven is no longer a given, is no longer a fact. The deep
sense of forgiveness is really seeing that, that the error that we’re being
called upon to forgive has never been a fact. That may take some reasoning
and some standing for the fact that we’re not going to argue with ourselves.
But the most important thing is to see that there can be no offense. No offense
against God, therefore no offense against His image and likeness. We can turn
to divine Love to keep us free from taking offense, even if offense is meant
(or oftentimes it is not) we have to forgive people, sometimes they don’t
know they are offending us, or we don’t know if we are offending someone else.
But we can really look past that to see the perfection of being, to see the
reality that Love is really the life of every one of us, and that no one can
truly offend or want to offend.
spirituality.com host: I think one of the things that I
have found helpful in dealing with situations of needing to forgive is to
recognize that there never was a time when God was absent. Because often these
things argue that there was a moment where evil could happen because God maybe
was somewhere else. When you can see that continuity, that divine Love was
really present throughout your whole life, your whole being, and there never
was a time when it was absent, that will be the moment when you really will
have a wonderful sense of peace. That may not come instantly. You may be able
to forgive at different levels, depending on the experience.
Bea: Yes, I love that too, forgiving at different levels.
And the final forgiveness is: It just didn’t happen. If it didn’t come from
God, who is the giver of all good, the giver of all life, it didn’t really
happen.
spirituality.com host: Now, this is from Lisa in Moline,
Illinois. And she says: “We’re the home of the manager of the Von Muir department
store in the Omaha shopping center where there were the horrific murders.”
The young lady was one of the victims as you know, probably, Bea. “How can
we pray today to help the family and our community? How do we pray for others
we do not know personally?”
Bea: That’s a very interesting question, and there’s going
to be a program on public radio called “The power of forgiveness.” I know
it was a documentary, and it was shown early at Virginia Tech and I’m really
looking forward to that. To see the power of forgiveness (and you’re reaching
out to helping others to be forgiven), and to experience forgiving, is part
of that power of forgiveness—it itself is power. Good is power. It’s supreme.
It reigns. The evil that’s included in an evil act does not stand. God is
the life of every one of whom you mentioned there, and no one is separated
from God. Certainly the people who have been offended have not been separated
from God, and therefore that is how they can forgive the offense. But the
one who is offending has never been separated from God. That wonderful sense
that divine Life is Love, is the Life that is living us, is the Love that
is enabling us to forgive, the Mind that is enabling us to forget. More and
more I do see the importance of forgiving and forgetting, and that perhaps
forgiving isn’t finished and totally free until it’s forgotten. When it ceases
to come from your thought, that’s helping the forgiving process. So I know
your desire is to bless and help others to forgive and forget.
spirituality.com host: By forgetting, though, we don’t
mean forgetting the loved ones who have been injured or killed or in any way
or diminishing what they had to give to the community.
Bea: No, but forgiving is no longer “given” that that happened.
They really have always been in God’s care. We see many things today, I’m
sorry to say, that are ungodlike. And the more that we can see God, Spirit’s
allness right where those things would seem to be, the more we’re blessing
our world, forgiving our world.
spirituality.com host: Yes. And I think in the second question,
“How do we pray for others that we do not know personally?” the chief thing
that has helped so much is just having compassion. Because when I think of
my daily rounds and individuals going through their daily rounds, wherever
they may be in the world, the aspirations are the same. They may take different
forms, but each of us wants to experience kindness, and love, and the feeling
of being productive and helpful to others, and those kinds of things. So when
something happens to someone where that desire is cut off, the immediate feeling
I have is compassion and a desire to know that God’s love is with that individual,
sustaining them, and with their family, providing comfort and peace in whatever
form is needed for that particular situation. Just cherishing each individual
in your thought and seeing their unity with God will sustain everyone around
them, everyone who is touched by them.
Bea: Yes, and [we need] to handle the argument that comes
so often, “Well, I deserved this” or “I wasn’t praying properly” or something.
Help them to forgive themselves, because I think in every instance where I’ve
known where somebody has done something pretty bad, the question is often
asked, “Why did this happen? Did I deserve this?” Help everyone free themselves
from the belief that they’re involved in causing error of any kind.
spirituality.com host: This is from Katy in Indiana: “While
attending a Virginia Tech football game this fall, I had the opportunity to
talk to students about the tragedy. They said one evil person could not affect
them in their lives and that they would keep on enjoying their college life.
How do you address this concept of evil?”
Bea: Well, I don’t see anything wrong with that concept
of evil, but it doesn’t go as far as it could in forgiveness. Yes, not to
let one evil mistake color our lives. That’s certainly what evil seems to
do, it seems to take one error and let it crowd out all the good that’s there.
I think it’s right to exalt the good that is there. And that of course will
outshine the evil. In forgetting evil, we want to be sure that we’re not just
slipping something under the rug, but truly see that it’s not a given, it’s
not a fact, it’s never been a reality.
spirituality.com host: This is from the Christian Science
Reading Room in Boston, Massachusetts, and the person says: “Most discussions
on forgiveness focus on personal relationships with friends, families, and
employers. What is the best way to think about forgiveness in the legal context?
Here’s the background. I’m involved in a lawsuit against a government organization
and I know them primarily through their lawyer. I find it very difficult to
deal with him because I see him doing things which are clearly not ethical,
and I can generate no personal feelings of trust toward him. He often catches
me off-guard with the shock of his behavior. How can I look at this situation
better?”
Bea: I think that’s when you really go to God and say,
“Our Father, which art in heaven.” To really start out from the basis of one
God and one creation, the man or woman of God’s creating, and start from that
basis. And then you will not be taken off-guard. Good is supreme, and I think
that’s one of the things forgiveness really acknowledges. Maybe it’s unacknowledged,
actually, in our recognition of it, but as we’re forgiving, we are really
seeing that good is supreme. God is All. And the individuals who seem to be
expressing something unlike God, that is not the reality of their being. And
the more that you can see that in every instance, when you have any opportunity
for conversation, if you’re holding in thought the supremacy of God, then
that is going to be supreme, the good will be supreme, evil will not have
power. The question indicates to me, too, the fear that perhaps evil will
win and have power. And it does not. The final analysis is the supremacy and
omnipotence of God, good. The divine will is expressed, and that’s what we
need to hold to, because in lawsuits like that there claims to be many wills
being expressed. But the scientific translation of the Lord’s Prayer says:
 | “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. |
| Enable us to know,—as in heaven, so on earth,—God
is omnipotent, supreme.” |
And holding on to that sense of the supremacy and omnipotence of God
will free your thoughts, so that you can forgive and it will no longer be
a given.
spirituality.com host: One thing that came to me while
you were talking was that Mrs. Eddy has a very powerful statement in Science
and Health. She says, “Let Truth uncover and destroy error in God’s
own way, and let human justice pattern the divine.” That will often provide
the opportunity for that kind of uncovering to occur if it should be needed.
Bea: And I think that was an exact quote, you did it exactly.
spirituality.com host: Now this is from Atlanta, Georgia:
“How do you forgive someone when they continue to mentally abuse you on a
regular basis? As soon as you feel you have forgiven them, they do the same
thing again, and you have to forgive them over and over again. How do you
get to the point where it doesn’t hurt you anymore and you can instantly forgive
every time?”
Bea: Well, I think, practice makes perfect—and you are
doing that. And it will come easier and easier, especially as we see that,
for one thing, I think we do need to get into motive. I’m not sure anyone really wants
to hurt another. It comes about through, perhaps, being hurt themselves and
their not knowing what love really is. As each time you forgive, it’s not
wasted for you. The same forgiveness doesn’t have to be done over again. It’s
a new view of that person, a fresher view of the individual. And I’m sure
that’s how you can keep it from continually happening. I am very impressed—I’m
sure we all are—not seven times, but seventy times seven. We must forever
forgive, and that means maintaining a forgiving state of consciousness so
that you don’t even react when the act seems to be repeated again—you respond
with love. If we react, we’re letting somebody else govern our actions, but
if we respond with love, then we are in control of the situation. And that’s
what it sounds like to me, that you may feel helpless in the face of the situation,
but you really are in control of it, and Love is supreme.
spirituality.com host: This is from T. H. in Rochester,
New York: “Usually forgiveness involves forgetting about an unjust situation,
bitterness associated with it, and so forth, and replacing it with Christly
love. Have I truly forgiven someone for violating me if I don’t feel bitterness
toward that person but still don’t want to be his buddy, dance with him in
the ballroom scene, etc.?”
Bea: I think as we truly forgive that eventually all memory
of it will disappear. But no, you’re not expected to dance with him in the
ballroom scene, if that’s what was said. We’re not expected to go beyond our
ability at the present time. If the best way you can maintain the attitude
of forgiveness is by not being with him, that certainly is not wrong. Eventually,
of course, all memory of wrong and mistakes and offenses against us, will
disappear. It’s a big subject to see that God, good, is All, that we are operating
from that basis. And every attempt we make at forgiveness is seeing the allness
of God right where the offense seemed to have taken place. But to really answer
your question, I think we’re not expected to do what’s beyond our means at
the time. And if avoiding somebody is the only way one can really escape the
offense then that’s a step in the right direction, but only a step.
spirituality.com host: Janet in California says: “How can
one get beyond the belief that there is no evil, no matter?”
Bea: Well, that’s the question of the day, isn’t it?
spirituality.com host: Yes.
Bea: I think it comes in many different ways, different
times, but staying with the Word will often reveal new insights into the Word.
And what I mean by “staying with the Word” is that God is All, that Life is
good, that there is no evil. As you stay with the Word, it will begin to unfold
and reveal itself as your true consciousness. But not to deny it or debate
it. Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to say “God is All, all is good.”
But the more we stay with the Word, the more the Word reveals itself, and
becomes our true consciousness. I know there have been certain things I’ve
striven to know for years, and then one day, something will come and it makes
it very clear that the Word that I’ve been saying really is true. For example,
that “old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” I love
that all things become new, and then one day I just realized, then the old
man, the old, is passed away, is gone. But there were several years of really
loving the idea of “all things being made new” before that final revelation
came, that the old is gone. It’s passed away, it’s never been real about me
or about anyone else. So stick with the Word. And I think the words of the
Lord’s Prayer, especially with the insight Mary Baker Eddy gives with her
spiritual sense of the Lord’s Prayer, will do more for us than perhaps anything
else. I know when I don’t know where to begin praying I just start with that
Lord’s Prayer and it does unfold. From the very beginning with “Our” we’re
embracing ourselves and all mankind. Certainly, it’s a forgiving prayer because
we’re embracing the one who may have committed an offense against us with
a sense of being the child of God. But there’s really nothing like staying
with the Lord’s Prayer.
spirituality.com host: Yes, Mrs. Eddy says it “covers all
human needs” and it really does. Lorraine is writing to tell us that her relationship
with her mother was difficult, to put it mildly. “She has been gone for many
years but recently I’ve realized how my behavior contributed to making that
relationship difficult. I’m finding it hard to see how to overcome my regret
and self-condemnation for that.”
Bea: Oh, I’m so glad you brought that up because self-forgiveness
is so important. I’m not sure we can forgive others if we don’t forgive ourselves.
The more we see the perfection of being, we do see our errors, but if we can
see them not as the truth about us, but as error, we will begin to get at
peace. I think this is true in every case of grief. There’s the sense that
we could have done better, we could have done more. And I know in these public
[tragedies] such as Virginia Tech and that kind of thing, that people thought
they could maybe have done something to prevent that. As you say, in thinking
about your mother, Oh, you could have done something to have made it easier.
Forgive yourself and know that it’s divine Love that forgives you. Facing
yourself is right. That’s not an easy thing to do. As I said earlier, self-justification
is the lowest element of thought and gets in the way of forgiveness and forgiving
ourselves. I congratulate you on facing it, and I know that you will get the
peace that comes. And your mother is continuing and growing and unfolding.
I don’t know what happens after they leave this world, but I’m sure of it,
that Life is eternal. You can expect that she now knows better how to deal
with you. Often parents don’t know how to deal with certain children, and
there are a lot of regrets on all sides. But progress is the law that we are
under, the law of God, and that progress applies not only to those who are
not here but to ourselves.
spirituality.com host: I think one other thing, too, is
to apply what you’ve learned in future relationships, and rejoice that you
have learned it and now you can move on with that knowledge.
Bea: I think that’s a great point to think about forgiveness
that we forgive today will involve future relationships. That’s a great way
of forestalling evil, isn’t it?
spirituality.com host: I hope so, anyway. Now this one
doesn’t have a name or place but it’s a good question. It says: “It seems
that fear often seems to be the stumbling block to forgiveness—fear of being
duped again, fear of being seen as weak, fear of not having another opportunity
at something. How can we address these fears?”
Bea: Of course, that’s the basic thing, addressing fear.
I think the thing that addresses fear more than anything else is love—“perfect
love casteth out fear.” And as we bring this sense of perfect love—not human,
partial love—but the love that is of God to every individual and circumstance,
we do forestall the repetition of evil. More importantly, we are able to deal
with it if it does seem to be repeated again. That love really is what we
need more than anything else. I don’t know if I quoted earlier—I’ve certainly
been thinking about Mrs. Eddy’s statement in Miscellaneous Writings
1883–1896, that more love is needed: “A pure affection, concentric,
forgetting self, forgiving wrongs and forestalling them ...” (p. 107)—I did
say it earlier, but it means an awful lot to me that Love itself is the answer.
We all can reflect it because it is God. We not only can, but we do reflect
the Love that forestalls and absolutely keeps us from being the victim of
error. I know many people cease to forgive or don’t want to forgive because
it just makes them a dupe of evil again. That really does not happen when
there’s true forgiveness on the basis of God’s goodness and allness. There
is that forgiving that keeps error from being repeated. But if it is repeated,
then we forgive seventy times seven.
spirituality.com host: I think part of the forgiving is
that even with someone who continues to misbehave, we can recognize that this
is not their nature. It really is not what they truly desire. And maybe we
forgive seventy times seven because when we get to seventy-one times seven,
or whatever, that whole mistaken view of themselves disappears and we finally
get to see the real, spiritual man that they actually represent.
Bea: That’s really so important because it is what we know
about man that enables us to forgive, to ask for forgiveness, and to be forgiven.
spirituality.com host: This is from Melanie in Harrisburg.
She says: “Lately, it’s occurred to me that Jesus could not have had his healing
in the tomb if he had held onto anger or hurt toward his antagonizers, but
he must have known that his weapons of warfare were not carnal or that he
was not warring against the flesh. Can you speak to that?”
Bea: Well, I think she said it. Yes, Jesus didn’t see evil
as real. He forgave his enemies, that’s the whole message of the cross—is
forgiveness. I’m absolutely sure that Jesus forgave those who put him on the
cross, that the whole message of the cross is love forgiving its enemies.
Had he not forgiven, of course he could not have risen from the tomb. But
I’m just wondering really how much time he had to spend in forgiving? I think
that the forgiveness of the Christ is perhaps instantaneous.
spirituality.com host: Yes. She says “he must have known
that his weapons of warfare were not carnal or that he was not warring against
the flesh.”
Bea: “But mighty through God to the pulling down of strong
holds.” I can’t profess to know what Jesus was thinking in the tomb, but we
know it was wonderful because of the resurrection and the ascension. And I
feel like we’re having the opportunity daily to ascend over material beliefs,
including those involved in offenses and what needs forgiving.
spirituality.com host: I think, also, he says—before he
even got into the tomb—it was “Father, forgive them; for they know not what
they do.” So we can pretty much assume he was already adopting the forgiveness
stance. But also when you think about his non-conversation with Pilate, where
Pilate asks him all kinds of questions and to many he didn’t respond. And
throughout that whole period where he was being beaten and accused and so
forth, his silence, I think, does confirm Melanie’s comment that he wasn’t—that
his weapons were not carnal. He wasn’t getting in there and debating with
them, he was simply standing outside that whole experience in a way.
Bea: Yes. I love that and I’m glad you brought it up, Melanie,
and that we could pursue it farther, because the Christ is the Truth and Jesus
is our Exemplar, and really, as we are forgiving, we are working toward that
eternal life that is the Christ. We are ascending over some belief that evil
is real. And, to me, it’s just so important to ascend daily. The way we leave
the human scene is through ascension and not through dying, not through unforgiven
thoughts, but ascending over the beliefs of life in matter. And that’s certainly
what he was doing. Even as he was going through the resurrection he was still
ascending—and ascension means so much to me—and ascending over the belief
that there is error or evil to be experienced is certainly important to me.
spirituality.com host: Sara in Boise, Idaho is asking this
question: “My mother was divorced about three years before she passed away.
It’s been very difficult for our family, particularly because many relatives
blame my father for the way he used to treat my mother. My father has had
a struggle with depression and regret. I love my dad. How can I help my family
when they want no part of him?”
Bea: Well, I think that they do have the capacity to forgive.
The personal sense of each one of us is not the reality. The spiritual sense
that we’re the image and likeness of God is the reality. And of course the
image and likeness of God would just instantly forgive. I think the more that
you can see your family as they truly spiritually are, the very image and
likeness of God, that will open their eyes to being able to forgive. Not one
of us is a mortal. And each one of us has the opportunity of seeing more of
our own true spiritual being, and that of others, in which actually in the
reality in the final sense, there’s no need to forgive because there’s no
offense. The love that you have for your father will bless him. And I know
as you see the others as having the same love—what’s possible to you is possible
to them—that will break that mesmerism.
spirituality.com host: And our final question for today
is from another individual in the Christian Science Reading Room in Boston,
Massachusetts: “As a child, I had a very difficult time with my parents and
didn’t and don’t accept their beliefs. Times are changing. How do I deal with
them when it seems to be age, generation, cultural difference issues?”
Bea: Well I think that’s a very good question. Because
there are age and generation and cultural differences, but the Truth knows
nothing of those differences. Back to where I said the personal sense of any
one of us isn’t the truth of us. The truth of each one is that we’re created
in the image and likeness of God and reflect that moment by moment, and we’re
all striving to see it more and to reflect it more. Nothing can interrupt
or interfere with that. Cultural differences do not change the facts of Truth.
Or generational differences. I love seeing that—that we were all created at
the same time, when God made man in His own image and likeness. And then we
cannot fail to reflect that absolute goodness.
spirituality.com host: I wanted to ask you, Bea, if you
could just define personal sense a little bit because that’s
a somewhat shadowy subject in some ways?
Bea: I’m glad to have the opportunity. Personal
sense means to me, I guess, the unreality of our being—what the culture
and what the generation says about us–that we’re born in such an age and therefore
we act this way. Or we’re born under certain circumstances. That, to me, is
personal sense. The real sense of us, our real identity, is that we’re the
image and likeness of God—we’re absolutely perfect. We reflect perfect Love,
perfect being. Anything that we can say about ourselves that deals with age
or culture or matter, in any degree, doesn’t touch us. We need to work out
of that, to keep it from touching us. But the important thing is that we see
ourselves and others as the image and likeness of God—and that takes some
doing. It takes working at it every day, perhaps every hour of every day.
Does that give some insights into it?
spirituality.com host: I think that’s quite helpful, and
I appreciate your taking the time to do that. And I wonder if you have any
final comments you’d like to make as we round up our work here?
Bea: Oh, there are so many things—we have just been addressing
questions, nowhere answering them. But I want to acknowledge now that each
one who’s asked a question, whether they actually asked it or thought it,
that they will receive an answer because the Christ is Truth and does answer
all of our questions. And then I thought I’d really like to conclude with
two lines of a poem by Anne Campbell Stark. It’s not a poetess I know and
I never could find the whole poem. But it is a prayer: “Teach us to forgive,
dear Father in heaven, and help us forget they we have forgiven.”
|
|
|
 |
| Citations used in this chat: |
|
Science and Health:
497:9-11 We
16:26
542:19-21
King James Bible:
Matt. 9:2
Matt. 9:5, 6
Isa. 58:12
James 3:17
II Cor. 5:17
I John 4:18
II Cor. 10:4
Luke 23:34
|
Send
feedback
to the staff.
|
|
|
